I'm glad to see there is active recruitment for people with rust skills. More broadly, I'm not sure what the general policy or position on commercial postings is. It's clearly good that rust is attracting this kind of attention, and this is clearly a place where an audience for such interests can be found. At the same time, they have the potential to overwhelm other content quickly.
In general, some level of such postings, clearly declared and responsibly conducted, could be acceptable. One way to clearly declare posts as such would be to have a category for them to go in.
Is it time to decide a policy on what that level is, and whether a category should be created for it? However, the policy comes first: if the acceptable level of such posts is very low, creating a category for them likely implies a higher level of acceptance and may encourage unwanted posts.
Apologies if the policy has already been declared and I have missed or forgotten it. I kind of think that "too much commercial attention" is a good problem to have, if that is indeed the case.
Thank you for starting this topic, you beat me to it
I'm not aware of any published policy, so I agree that it warrants discussion.
I agree that it is good to have a place for Rust job advertisements, since commercial symbiosis is a great way to promote Rustanceans sustainably.
That said, I personally find it a little bit jarring (but manageable in the current volume) each time a "shouty" job advert pops up in the topic list. The (few) advertisements I've seen here are usually by newly created accounts, that have very little experience with the "culture" here (Or even Rust in general, such as asking for "3+ years of experience with Rust", as we've seen earlier this year). I think our "club-house" should be open to this kind of thing, but the recruiters should at least wipe their feet on the doormat before they begin their pitch Providing an explicit policy would be a great start!
I've brainstormed and researched a bit (i,e. ten minutes with a search engine, nothing spectacular), and here are some scenarios I came up with. I think it would be a good idea to make a Poll out of this in a later stage, but before doing that, I'd like to brainstorm more alternatives. (My previous polling experience taught me unwise to add poll-options afterwards, as it skews the results against the "newcomer option", Discourse actively discourages this by making it hard/moderator-only)
suggestions for Job advertisement policies (please expand!)
"Seller's market": posting job adverts becomes forbidden, but programmers may advertise their availability.
(personally not too fond, seems arbitrary to me, but it would prevent the "five-minute-old-account" type advertisements)
I see how that comes off now, will update! The intention was to have a posting that had c++ or java background with ~2 years of rust work. Sorry to come in uninvited, and definitely not trying to spam. Happy to conform to any policy in place.
Glad that you're participating! Great to have some input from the recruitment side as well
My apologies for implying you were at fault, Your post clearly wrote that you were asking for 5 years general experience. I was referring back to another post we had ~a year ago (without naming anyone), who literally asked for "53 years+ rust experience". (edit: sorry, it was 3 years, which should also lessen the confusion)
I see how my reference could be misconstrued as subtle criticism, and that wasn't intended.
(edit, updated my previous post to make that clearer, and dropped the condescending smirk.. )
Since we have your attention, what would be the kind of guidance that you are looking for as a recruiter?
Indeed, what could we do on this forum to make job advertisements more productive for everyone, i.e. easier for you as recruiter, and less jarring for us as forum-regulars.
I'm thinking that an explicit policy posting, that gives a few guidelines, a bit of background information, and probably some other venues to try (or to try instead, if we decide against job postings here), would be very helpful?
Before I can insist that recruiters should "wipe their feet on the doormat", we should probably have a doormat/policy-topic in the first place
I'm also wondering how we can make that policy findable to new users.
With the current low volume of job adverts, I think a Sticky topic at the top would be too much, but a "normal" topic might not have the discoverability needed to make new recruiter-accounts aware of it.
Is there any recruiter jargon/keywords that we should include in such a topic to make it easier to find?
Several people indeed explained it, and there was much bemusement
I think the simplest solution, and one that a recruiter would pay the most attention to, would be a separate category. This would prevent unnecessary posts in the wrong place, and be easy to moderate. From my basic searching there were only a handful of posts/threads related to adverts, so I can't imagine the volume or need for moderation would be too large. Just my input!
Ya'll have a great community here. Thanks for allowing a civil conversation to pave way for potential new policy.
Hm. This categorisation would not have occurred to me. While it is, I suppose, technically recruitment, it's about further community participation rather than a commercial advertisement, and I think that makes all the difference. Others apparently think differently, so some guidance and policy might well help.
Perhaps it's just that the distinction I'm thinking of is more "announcement vs advertisement" than really about advertisements from recruiters specifically, and we should name potential new categories accordingly. I'd like announcements to be things that are genuinely relevant to the community at large, and not to (eventually / potentially) get lost among things that are merely broadcast.
Would it be useful and/or productive if there a recruiter "ambassdor" ... Someone already familiar with rust community that could co-ordinate posting job announcements? It might come off a bit beaurocratic or "gatekeeper"-ish but there some upsides that as well, e.g., cross posting to discord or irc, trusted source of info, knowledge of community practices and even specific people, ....
I'm not sure yet if the current volume warrants an ambassador yet, I think a written document (which only costs effort/time once, rather than continuously) would suffice for the moment.
I'm also not sure if this kind of outreach is where I would want to "spend" my volunteers (they're scarce enough already, and I'd rather see them do other Rusty things first)
Good point, that definitely speaks for a #category!
I'm a recruiter, I guess you would say head hunter since I only do full time placements for my clients. If you were looking for a new opportunity where would you go today?
I don't believe there these forums were (overtly) frequented enough by recruiters/advertisers that a policy was required.
The company I work at is going through a large hiring phase and where we source new candidates from is primarily word of mouth and the various "Who's Hiring" threads across the internet (e.g. this one on /r/rust).
Hiring on this forum might be a bit harder because it's focused more towards technical topics. That's not saying you can't advertise here, just that you'll need to be a bit more tactful and try not to come across as a shill.
There are also some topics which you want to steer clear of. For example, Rust is a good candidate for blockchain and crypto technologies but many companies in this area have conducted themselves so poorly (blatant spam, unsolicited private communication, using buzzwords to piggy-back off the hype train without actually understanding the technology) that mentioning the topic can be taboo in some communities.
I think people are happy for you to promote jobs (who wouldn't want to write Rust for their full time job?), but you need to do it in a tactful way that won't go against the community's values.
Yes, I'm no Engineer myself, but I do like to have a bit of knowledge on my work. Rust is such a versatile language that gets a bit difficult. I have mostly worked with it in regards to embedded applications in the past for cloud servers. However lately most of my client demand is in the Crypto space currently.
The same could be said of C++. Which I believe is a lot more difficult to understand. And many other languages beside.
This confuses me.
When I think of "embedded" I think of micro-controllers and systems with hard real-time requirements. Like a machine control system, a primary flight controller on a airplane, etc. When I think of "cloud servers" I think of web servers, PHP, Java, nothing so critical.
Anyway, what is the deal with recruiters asking for N years of experience with language X when language X has only been a thing for less than N years?
This is something of a running joke now a days.
How about this: If you want a really good programmer for your project find one with domain knowledge of whatever it is the project is about? No matter if they have Rust experience or not.
I'm sure a good C++ programmer could get the hang of Rust pretty quickly. If the domain is performance critical, real-time, embedded system.
I'm sure a good Javacript/PHP/Java developer could get the hang of Rust pretty quickly. If the domain is web services.
How about those that want a Rust programmer investing into bringing up to speed those good C++ or Javascript developers they find?
If you see what I mean.
At the end of the day, quite often, the actual language in use is the least of the problem. It's seems counter productive to select candidates on language alone.
The cloud servers I'm speaking of are Intel Optane in memory applications for Big Data analytics. Because RUST is so low latency it's ideal.
To answer your question X< N =stupid recruiter. Sadly this isn't isolated to the Rustacions. DevOps, AI, ML, Computer Vision. All the same.
I completely agree on your invest in the employee philosophy. However when most companies reach out to me it's generally a timing factor. They need a problem solved or guidance.
Providing an explicit policy would be a great start!
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